Here is a type of post I've never posted before: a conversation.
This is a conversation my friend, Tom, and I had over Gmail chat. He's been on a trip to New Mexico and has visited a couple cathedrals and missions from the early work the catholic church did over there. We discussed some of the merit of artifacts and holy sites as regarded by catholics. (I should admit I edited the conversation for typos, but the conversation remains completely in tact.)
Tom: dood
Trevor: hola
Tom: i figured out the advantages of the catholic church.
Trevor: ok what?
awesome hats?
red cloaks
the element of surprise?
fanatical devotion to the pope?
Tom: they may have a lot of things that I dont agree with, and yes, they do have awesome hats, but one really good thing is this: accessibility of the clergy
Trevor: ok, i'm done joking... elaborate
Tom: i visited chamayo yesterday... tiny little pueblo, people have been living there in the same way for hundreds of years. There's an old mission church there where theyve been celebrating mass for hundreds of years.
right by the front door
is the always open door to the father's office.
Trevor very nice
Tom: aye
Trevor the mission is still open?
wow
awesome
Tom: yeah
Tom: i was walking in to see the chapel, and a couple of parishioners walked in to see the padre. merely to talk and get his prayer for their son, who was sick.
Trevor sweet
Trevor "is anyone among you sick? Let him go to the elders to lay hands on him"
very nice
and i butchered the passage
but you know what I mean
Tom: also, the catholic church (at least the southwestern catholic church) seems to experience a lot more miracles.
aye. i love the idea
if i'm ever a pastor, my door will always be open.
and all my people will have my phone number.
Trevor awesome
Tom: the chapel at chimayo also had an entire room full of crutches on the wall.
no explanation
so my dad asked the padre
theyre all from people who have come to pray for healing, been healed, and left their crutches there.
Trevor wow
that's awesome
man, i wish i couldve gone
Tom: its sick, dude. we gotta road trip down here some time.
and, i also figured out what i think they have wrong.
Trevor what's that?
and it sounds like it's a lot different than catholic churches in other places
Tom: i'm not sure... these are the first catholic churches ive ever been in.
Trevor ok, but what do they have wrong?
Tom: the second commandment.
it's about images, and i originally thought it only applied to baals and asherahs etc.
Trevor i think you're right
Tom: but it talks about making images in order that they might worship God too. like the israelites did at Sinai-- they made a calf that represented the LORD who brought them out of egypt.
Trevor i disagree
i don't think it represented the LORD
i'd say that was just straight up idolatry
Tom: one sec. lemme show you the passage.
Trevor but i do agree with the graven images problem
Here it is
exodus 32:1
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him
woah wait
i found it, verse five
“festival to the LORD”
...
Tom: "tomorrow shall be a fest to the LORD"
Trevor hm
Tom: so they still thought they were worshipping God
at least partly,
though they were trying to serve two masters.
Trevor but what about when he says "these are your gods"
Tom: yeah
Trevor hm...
Tom: so it's a combination of violating commandment 1 and 2
Trevor maybe we should check what word for Lord is used
Trevor is it YHWH?
Tom: lemme check
Tom: yehovah
Trevor so only the real God
Tom: aye
Trevor but why does it say ‘gods’ plural?
i'll look it up
Trevor the word he uses for gods is elohim
equivalent to our word for it
Tom: so, that's what i think the Catholic church does, to a certain extent. Which is not to say that there aren't catholic people who believe (and preach) Christ and Christ alone.
Trevor true
and how did the one you visited do in that regard?
Tom: I haven't attended a mass there, so I dont know about that. There are a ton of crosses though. like, literally an unbelievable number.
and images of just about every saint you can think of.
Trevor see the praying to saints thing is problematic
Tom: aye. Paul woulda been pissed.
Trevor haha
but the fact of all the healing gives (that particular church) a lot of credibility
Tom: yeah. it does. but still, why treat a particular place as sacred? its considered sacred because a man had a vision there at a spring, and found a crucifix buried in the sand. he built a chapel over the site (the hole where he found the crucifix has been preserved).
their faith in Christ is what heals them, not the location.
but then, if the location is what gives them the faith...
or the courage to have the faith...
Trevor then their faith is in the artifact
and the location
so what about Christ?
Tom: you're right.
so where does the healing come from?
Trevor well the question is if their faith is in Christ or the artifact
couldn't they have said the same of the apostles though??
Tom: elaborate...
Trevor when the apostles performed miracles, the people were healed
Tom: yes, but they were performed in the name of Christ.
Trevor they would not have just had faith and been healed without the apostles presence, they hadn’t been healed before that time
are the healings then not in the name of Christ?
and if they are praying to Christ...
then Christ healed them
just as Christ healed people through the apostles through their faith in Him
Tom: i think the Apostle's healings came from their own gifts- Christ gave them those gifts, they were seals of their apostleship.
Trevor So God's has gifted healing to people. can he gift healing to a place?
Tom: he's God. yes. And in the OT he made a lot of places holy, and made it so that the bronze post would heal the people of the snake bites.
so there is a precedent for it, in the OT.
but does the new covenant change any of that?
oh oh oh!!!
i think i get it.
Trevor i was just about to type the same exact question
Tom: well, type it, so that i can answer it.
Trevor but does the new covenant change any of that?
(i love copy and paste)
Tom: thank you, trevor, I was hoping you'd ask that.
lol
anyway
before the fall, Adam and Eve were able to commune with God on a spirit-level- very similar to how we commune with the Spirit today.
Trevor and in person
physical person
He walked among them..
but anyway i'm still listening
Tom: but after the fall, that ability was lost because of sin.
God had no dwelling place in the hearts of men, and thus under the old covenant dwelt in the Temple.
Trevor got it
Tom: so the temple, and any site where God chose to commune with man, was holy
however,
with the new covenant under Christ,
God was now able to commune with man in Spirit
once again.
or rather
man was now able to commune with God in spirit
once again.
Trevor i'm tracking
Tom: since man is now once again the temple of God, and the curtain has been torn,
there is no longer any need for holy ground.
Trevor so can man still communicate with God via holy ground?
whether or not it's necessary?
because the NM church sounds like an example of holy ground communication
Tom: Yes, he can communicate with God wherever he wants to. But the ground is no longer holy... It's the man that is, made holy by the blood of the Lamb.
Praise God!
Trevor Amen
and so when people come to the holy site with faith, God heals them by His Spirit
through the site and their hearts
or only their hearts?
or maybe it's just enough that God heals them
whether or not we understand how
because God still did it
Tom: yes.
God is holy, his people are holy, and he healed them at a specific site, though the site is not holy
but the site is sanctified in a way, because through its story, God is glorified.
Trevor so why is it more common at this site?
ok!
that makes sense!
10:30 PM Tom: yes!
and also,
God relates to different people groups in different ways. Americans are innately skeptical. It's not a good thing, but we are. Mexicans, and native americans, however, are known for superstition. Thus, God relates to them through visions, dreams, miracles, etc., more easily.
Trevor true!
he does the same to muslim converts
Tom: aye.
Trevor Kumal Saleem, and others i've heard about
Tom: that's the guy that spoke in chapel once right?
Trevor: aye
